The work still is going to move forward and we’re still going to continue to help our communities. The people who do exist in the health equity space are very passionate about health equity. I’m excited about moving from fear to courage, to action, to collaboration, really focusing in on the business case for health equity. Health equity is more than a buzzword.

It’s commitment to ensuring every patient receives the care that they deserve, but in today’s political and corporate climate, that mission is facing new challenges. How are healthcare and pharmaceutical leaders navigating shifting policies, communication roadblocks, and growing hesitancy around health equity initiatives? And with so much uncertainty, how do they keep their work moving forward? Shreya Howe of Encoda, Camille Campbell of Accolade, and Tayla Mahmoud of Mooth Health shared their perspectives on what’s sat stake and what’s next for health equity.

I’m Hiro Recroch, and this is the MM&M podcast.

Thank you all so much for being here today to have a conversation around health equity within the Healthcare Pharma Biotech space. Really appreciate all of you taking the time. This is a conversation that we’ve been wanting to pull together for a while now because health equity is such an important topic in healthcare specifically and there has just been so many changes since the beginning of the year and wanted to pull all of you guys into this conversation to share your insights.

I would love for you guys to introduce yourselves and tell me what you do at your specific organizations. So Shreya, I’ll hand it off to you first. Thank you so much here. So my name is Shreya. I am the director of partner strategy and development at Encoda. And what I do on a day-to-day basis, so I’m actually I’m a pharmacist by training for a healthcare provider.

And where I stand now in my career is that I help pharmacy pharmaceutical organizations, or your life science organizations get messaging about their products out to our HCP, so anybody that is treating patients who are going through a cancer journey.

So anybody who’s been diagnosed with cancer, those treaters I work with the life science organizations if they have a new product that’s launching or if there is an unmet need with how HCPs are managing an adverse event. I’ll work within my organization and help life science organizations get education out, quality resources out to those HCPs so that they can better take care of patients. Great. Yeah, thanks for expanding on that. Taylor, do you want to go next? Sure.

Taylor Mahmoud, I lead health equity and multicultural strategy at Mooth Health, which is a health communications agency. In my role, I’m dedicated to integrating equity into every aspect of our work.

What that looks like is partnering with clients across public health organizations, biotech on defining their commitment to health equity, their health equity strategy, amplifying impact, communicating about programs and policies and engaging marginalized communities on important, health related topics. I also serve on the board of Black Health. Great. Thanks for sharing.

And Camille, could you round us off? Sure. My name is Camille and I’m Senior Director of Health Equity at Aclinton. And at Aclinton, we empower communities to take actions for better health. We primarily focus on underrepresented communities like the black community.

And our focus is to really be a trusted place for resources and connection when it comes to our communities being able to find information around diseases that impact us the most or that they care about and also serve as a bridge to various health opportunities such as participation and clinical research.

When and when it comes to that, we often like partner with pharmaceutical companies or biotech companies who are interested in diversifying their clinical research to help them execute on the community engagement initiatives that they might have and like their diversity action plans and bring those things to life. Um and really be that connection between those entities and the communities that they’re trying to reach. We do this in a lot of different ways. We meet people people where they are.

We have like a digital platform called Now Included. But I also like to say we’re in the streets because we are, you know, we’re at the churches, we’re at the health fairs, we’re at the barber shops, building relationship and community before just going and asking people to, you know, do something that they might not trust or know a lot about such as participate in a clinical trial or some other health action. And then a little bit of additional information about my background similar to Sharita. I’m also a pharmacist.

And I work worked in pharmaceutical industry for about 15 years before leaving, what I say traditional pharma, we’re taking a hiatus from traditional pharma and coming to do the health equity work more fully at Acleda. Great. Yeah, thanks so much for all the incredible introductions. You guys are all really, you know, tapped into your area of work and great to see all the amazing impacts you guys are having.

Um so this podcast is really focused on health equity, which is extremely timely considering a lot of the shifts in the political and corporate landscape that have been affecting health equity outcomes. Before we kind of delve into the nitty-gritty of these different verticals, I really wanted to ask each of with you. How do you define health equity?

I would define health equity as ensuring that all patients regardless of their background receive the equal amount of care or the they have access to actually high-quality evidence-based oncology care. And I know that’s like a standard definition, but what it means for me.

So as a provider, I need to make sure that I am aware of the nuance that might affect my patients and how I would treat my patients, whether it’s a person of color or if I’m at at a practice that’s in a rural area where I might need to bring or incorporate different types of resources for these patients so that they can get equal care as anyone who I’m treating or who is within my care. And at Incota, you know, we sort of have a bird’s eye view.

So we look at practices or our membership includes practices across the entire United States. And so when we talk about health equity. Sometimes there is this like racial component to it, but it’s not that. Depending on where your practice is, you know, maybe you are in an area where there are, you know, where you’re treating maybe different races of people, but maybe you’re in an area where there are rural and urban components. Maybe you’re in in an area where there are sex-based components, so gender and sex.

And so we have to think through the resources that are being created so that we’re addressing health equity concerns across the continuum of health equity, not just based on, you know, socio-economic or language barriers or race barriers and things like that. So when I think about health equity, it really is, where you are, the types of patients that you’re interacting with and make sure making sure or ensuring that they have equal access to evidence-based care and oncology.

And I say oncology specifically because I’m in oncology, but understanding that it’s it’s throughout any whatever your treatment needs are or whatever your disability state is. Hop in here and build upon what Sharida said. I think it was a great point around, you know, anybody can be represented within an under represented population. It doesn’t necessarily mean, you know, race or ethnicity.

It’s, you know, anyone who is um who is experiencing limited access um to something that is vital to their health care and being as healthy as possible. And when I think about health equity, I specifically think about the removal of barriers or the provision of resources to ensure that everyone is on this level playing field when it comes to having that chance to be as healthy as possible.

So for those of us who are working in the health equity space or even if you’re not working in the health equity space, but you want to think about like how does your role contribute to health equity, you know, it’s the thinking of what is it that I do every single day that results in removal of a barrier so that somebody who may not have had a chance to be as healthy before can be be healthier. Or what am I doing every day where I am providing a resource or my organization is providing a resource that you know moves us closer to that goal.

So that’s my definition is around removing barriers and providing resources to level the playing field for everybody. Yeah, and one other build no notes based on what everyone has mentioned. I do think it’s really important to just really talk about equity versus equal because you know equity recognizes that People have different circumstances. They have different needs.

There’s different structural barriers that are already in place and that is going to require a different approach to meet their needs. That is not treating everyone equally and that is not treating, you know, giving everybody the exact same solution. So I I just want to add that additional point. Yeah, thanks so much for, you know, touching on that.

I think everything that each of you mentioned was so profound in some ways when it comes to, you know, touching on things like barriers as well as what’s the difference between equity and being equal as well.

And all of you being in the healthcare and communication space, I really did want to ask, you know, as the next question is if there are any communication challenges or misconceptions each of you have encountered when discussing health equity and specifically around terms like DEI and representation as well, them being such hot topics. at the moment. I’m happy to start.

I I would say uh I see that health equity is often conflated with D&I. Um and we’re in this uh and we have have been in this anti-equity moment, just calling it what it is. And as we’re in this environment and you look at the public discourse, health equity sits at the center of a broader DNA conversation and that’s making it vulnerable, right? So frankly, I would say I’ve been saying health equity is getting a bad rap.

Um there’s so many misconceptions and backlash around it. People thinking, for example, equity is about giving special treatment to some groups or equity, health equity is politically driven or divisive health equity, compromises quality of care. And or it’s the health equity efforts are too abstract to measure.

And so I really think it’s important for all of us that are practitioners to be very clear about the business case for health equity to tie it back to health outcomes and really to delineate, the D&I work that’s primarily focused on um, organizational structure, workplace experiences from talking about improving health outcomes. Absolutely.

I totally agree with Taylor in terms of people thinking that it’s all the same and it and it isn’t. And that being said, you know, I’m also really passionate about workforce diversity. So the DE&I conversation when it does come to organizational structure, that is part of health equity, right?

I mean when we think think about data that exists that show that, you know, black patients, you know, potentially live longer um and have better health outcomes when they are treated by physicians who look like them and can relate to them and have similar culture, and they can resonate with and they trust them more, then that goes along with the quote-unquote DEI conversation. And so one of the things that I like to do when we’re talking about language and communication is not say d e n i.

We going to we going to say with these words diversity equity, inclusion, what are the definitions and why are all of those different components important, right? Like we talked about equity, but diversity, diversity of thought, diversity of background, cultural, race, and ethnicity, all of that brings value to every conversation within health care.

And same the same as inclusion because people do want to feel like they belong when they are, you know, accessing the health care system and that they’re not being excluded And then there’s equity and health equity.

They all go together, but they all are related to one another, but conflating the terms, I agree, has caused for people to really, take health equity and put it in this really bad light when it that’s really science-based and can lead to better health outcomes for everybody, not just one particular group of people.

And I would like to add here and kind of build off of Camille’s statements too because, you know, this This isn’t necessarily like a conflation of the different terms like the health equity and DE&I, but when we think about DE&I or diversity, equity, and inclusion, there’s almost a misconception that it only benefits the marginalized communities that you are working with, but in reality, um you’re actually actually benefiting your organization like bringing diversity of thought and, you know, having programs that create more equity and allowing for a safe space for, you know, people within your organization to be able to share and to innovate, right?

Like you’re bringing in more innovation as well when you think about like DE and I and health equity and making sure that everyone is sort of on a level playing field.

And I think that we don’t a lot of times it’s thought of as the person or group of people who are benefiting, um and I say, you know, benefiting but it really is also the diversity that you get with just working with other individuals and understanding perspective as, you know, in my case, you’re trying to deliver care or as, you know, in from a biotech or pharma organization, like as you’re bringing new drugs to market, right?

And understanding the challenges that your patients are going to face when they go to access a medication that you’re, um, that you’re contemplating or going through the approval process with. Yeah, thanks so much for contributing to that um conversation around, you know, health equity misconceptions and all of that.

And I know this podcast you know, we’re really focused on the topic of health equity and you all of you touched on diversity equity and inclusion and I did want to ask, you know, just because it’s so timely as well with a lot of the Trump administration rolling back DEI initiatives, a lot of industries like tech kind of following suit, some farmer industries have also followed suit.

And I wanted to understand, you know, how this kind of roll back is kind of impacting or could impact the world of health care. Are you guys kind of seeing it in your work, especially just the mention of this term on how it might affect your work in healthcare communications moving forward? Yes. Yes, in short.

But I would say the recent executive orders pose immediate and wide-reaching long-term consequences to on health equity and the healthcare industry. And uh ban on D&I programs is just one area. You think about clinical trial, diversity, access to the affordable care act, drug pricing, workforce diversity, um you know transgender rights, uh ban on public health communications, right? restrictions.

So, it D&I is one aspect and an important aspect, but it it’s it’s wide-reaching in terms of the implications on healthcare and on our work. So, I just want to make sure that we have a broader lens on that. Um, and what I’ve seen is this recent executive orders and policies now are creating mounting challenges for health equity work. That was already under pressure.

So, think about increased legal restrictions, grow going access challenges, politicized landscape. This is really having a chilling effect on communications around health equity programs, initiatives, and even using the word equity. Yeah, I totally agree there and I will maybe give a perspective from the the two different lenses I’ve been focused on the impact from if that makes sense.

Um, you know, when we’re looking at I think of our research sponsor who we partner with, many of them understand the importance of having a diverse workforce and also from a health equity perspective like the importance of having clinical tri diversity and appropriate representation in clinical trials because that is equivalent to better science, which equals better business.

So they may be calling these initiatives something different, but still driving forward with the imperative or maybe not even calling them anything different. You know, I appreciate the companies who were doing this work even before, you know, there were guidelines and mandates requiring diversity action plans and things like that.

Because those are companies that regardless of the challenges that are coming our way now from the executive orders, continue to drive forward with the work. They’re just like, okay, we’ll have to get creative with it or we might have to change a little something here or there, but at the end of the day, we all know that the disparities don’t go away. The challenge isn’t work for diversity don’t go away just because you call it something different or you know the executive orders required that information to be taken down from a website. So that’s one thing. Or one way of looking at it.

But then also looking at it from let’s say maybe an FDA or NIH or CDC perspective where there’s a lot of research that was being done in populations that are historically under represented and now that research is having funding pulled because those grants are saying um within the the proposals like these band words or the the proposals that people want to put forth are not being even considered for funding because banned words are in there.

But like the words might be banned, but the people still exist in real life and these are still patients and they still experience these disparities. So ultimately the impact is going to be, you know, less research done to benefit everybody regardless of their differences and if that’s the case then that, you know, will eventually lead to worse outcomes for people. And so that’s It’s unfortunate, but that’s where we are right now. And and also holding space for the fact that people are dying now. Yes. Yeah.

I did want to ask sure that maybe if you wanted to jump in before I asked a follow-up question based on what was mentioned. I wanted to speak a little bit too like when we think about like rolling back of like health equity initiatives and things like that. Just thinking through like health equity initiative especially at the practice level holding individuals accountable to keep space for individuals and how they’re going to treat patients that may, you know, have barriers to specific care.

And like when I think about on a like a practice level and, you know, with maybe like our biotech and pharma organization, not holding that space. Now, you know, when we think about value-based care models and how you would incorporate health equity into how you’re thinking about how you’re treating your patients on a population level. Um, if you’re if you’re not holding space for those thoughts, you’re now not bringing into account those patient experiences.

Um I think about like Medicaid and Medicare expansion and what we saw previously, you know, how that could potentially be affected by, you know, the language around health equity and the rollback of specific initiatives as well. But like sitting in the provider space and like the practice space, you know, those are some of the things that I worry about like what is this going to look like now if you have a practice that’s in the urban area that was receiving a ton of funding, you know, from NIH. What does that look like with how you’re going to move forward with the treatment of your patient.

Now, I’m from Richmond, Virginia and so when you think about like a VCU Massey Cancer Center, you know, what does that mean for an organization like that and how they’re going to treat patients moving forward. Mhm. Yeah, that sounds really interesting in terms of, you know, what the impact would look like in different communities as well, urban versus rural, and all of that.

One quick question that I just wanted to follow up with all of you guys because, you know, we were talking about language and communications and getting creative with the way that you approach um some of these topics now. I was just curious, you know, since a lot of this has happened, what are some of the creative ways or words that people are now using in order to just advance the work that they’re already been doing for years. What are some of those words that they’re kind of substituting? That’s actually I feel like that’s a great question.

I’ll actually I don’t know because I am still continuing to use health equity and the work that we’re doing at Encoda. So I don’t I cannot speak to that.

I know that I’ve seen some gender terms being used like as far as sex and gender and like pulling of you know they and there and different terminology like that, um, but actually, I let Camille or Taylor answer, but I I just wanted to say that I’m still using health equity and, you know, in your terms related to it and anything that we’re doing at our organization. Yeah, thanks for sharing, Sherita.

I was going to let Taylor our communications expert answer this question because I’m I’m with Sherita. I’m like, listen, I’m going to still say it. But I know that there are other organizations who are using different words, so would love to hear what her experience has been. I will say organizations are responding differently. So there is no consensus of everybody started to use this language.

Clients that I’m working with, you know, they’re assessing based on their, you know, the business that they’re in, the services that they provide, legal risks, reputational risks, um organizational alignment. So it it’s not a find and replace, right? But I think what I’ve been advising uh many clients on as you look at lexicon. Is this is the time for us to be very precise with terminology.

When commute and and communicate about the exact focus and intent of our health equity efforts is not a time to just use broad statements.

What we found we did a language analysis and looked at certain terms and shifting sentiment and what we found is you know messaging that’s focused on health outcomes and patient-centric care maintain more of a a positive to neutral engagement, you know, the need to use health sector specific terms, just really being precise. So, access, right? Um, population health, barriers to health.

These are things that are, uh, you know, directly tied to the business that we’re doing.

So, whatever language wars they want to have outside of the healthcare sector, I think this is a time for us to really be precise in our communications, and also not to shy away from communicating about underserved patients, the for all, you know, language not so I I think the um the calculus is about maintaining the integrity of the intent of your initiatives, being very precise and talk and and grounding your communication and and health outcomes in what you’re intending to achieve.

You know, that kind of brings me onto like the next topic that we wanted to touch on specifically is that the healthcare sector is just so intertwined with the government sector as well when it comes to funding, when it comes to research and as well as the private sector in terms of spurring innovation. Tyler, you were mentioning something that was really important regarding you know being very precise with the language, especially when interacting as maybe a federal contractor as well.

And so I did want to ask, you know, for all of you guys, maybe just throw the question out there. These kinds of changes on the federal government level. If you are a federal contractor, you know, that works in the healthcare of space, how do you kind of see um or that kind of moving forward? Just to if there’s anything else that you guys have to add or um from Taylor’s point that, you know, being really precise with your communications and using specific language.

My organization we’re we’re not federal contractors, but we partner with organizations that are federal contractors and so what I am seeing with them is they’re trying to figure it out, right? They’re trying to figure out how do we keep this very important work going with all of these stipulations that seem to be coming down and those who uh I feel like get like more direct funding.

So like specific research dollars from the NIH like some of the health systems and hospitals that we work with, they are maybe uh you know feeling like they have to I want to say aqueous, but are maybe being a bit more careful than some of the, you know, maybe the big bio-pharmaceutical companies that, you know, have, I don’t want to say, I’m looking for the right, we’re about like cloud, but are kind of like, you know, yes, we get research dollars, but we also have a lot of power within this entire healthcare industry and therefore, you know, we can be careful with what we say, but we can take a little more risk.

So, I am right now just, you know, kind of sitting back and listening to conversations and and listening to how people are, um, viewing the landscape and planning their next modes of action, but we’re at a point where I feel like everybody is just like trying to figure figure out.

They want to keep the work going but don’t necessarily want to be targeted in some negative way for for doing work that they know is right and and you know and for using language that someone has said isn’t right even though they don’t necessarily believe that to be true. Just trying to figure it out. Yeah, just one other thing I would add is, you know, as we think about changes at the federal government level and its impact on our work, the word that comes to mind is uncertainty right?

Due to funding cuts, policy changes, it’s just rapidly changing and this applies to nearly every business sector including health. So I’m sure many across different sectors everyone is working to understand and adapt to new implications and you know as as stated trying to figure it out. I think we have to remind ourselves that we’re less than 90 days in. For sure. Yeah, that’s a that’s a big point that you just mentioned there.

in terms of just the pace in terms of how things have happened so quickly, it not even being 90 days. And so what is the next, you know, you’re going to look like even when it comes to changes as well? And so yeah, that’s actually very fair to note in terms of there’s just so much uncertainty moving forward. I did have some specific questions for you guys based on the specific areas and verticals you work on.

So Taylor, the first question is for you, you work in the realm of health equity, multicultural communications at Ebboth Health, and you work with clients across public health and biotech, pharma as well. I did want to ask, you know, what are some of the most pressing concerns that um maybe people that you work with have regarding have around health equity and DEI communications at this current moment?

Benny, you know, pressing concerns for clients have been around How do you navigate the balancing act? Balancing patient needs and reputational risk, safeguarding progress, and continuing the work while minimizing risk. And so there’s this major balancing act, right?

Um trying to with with an eye towards trying to kind of keep your head down and keep the work going because you know the importance of the programs and services on um advancing health for many different customers. So So, I have been surprised at seeing such a strong focus on language, on communication strategies.

So, there’s been a you know strong focus on adapting to increase scrutiny, changing regulations, being mindful of managing internal and external stakeholder expectations and all of this is against a backdrop of widening health inequities.

So, you’re trying to like, hang on to this Mario Mario Go round of this fast changing external landscape, you know, be very mindful about the intention and the progress of the work that you’re trying to do internally and also just kind of be nimble um to this changing environment.

So, that has really been uh that has really been the focus for clients and from an internal perspective, how do we be a resource to help our clients make the next best decision? So, it’s not a about reading the tea leaves for what’s going to happen a year from now. It’s what’s the next best decision? What kind of information do you need? How do we constantly understand what’s happening outside of our four walls?

Because I think every client can get kind of, you know, an echo chamber of what’s happening within their organization and what impact is that having on on patients and on physicians?

Yeah, I think, you know, what you talked about about making the next decision um specifically is just so important and can really just impact the way that organizations operate moving forward and it seems like there’s so much more emphasis and focus on information gathering and how to navigate that as well.

Um Camille, I wanted to turn to you since you work um with Acclonate, you work in the realm of medical and science communications aiming to build uh relationships, engagement, and technology to empower communities to take actions for their own and better health. I did want to ask, you know, how do you see a shift in some of these initiatives kind of impact the communications with under represented communities specifically.

In terms of communicating to our communities, we’re actually not seeing that much of a shift. I mean, we continue to want to be a trusted resource to our communities. And so that means using the language that we’ve always used.

What is it that we need to say in order to um have our message resonate and amplify and for people to feel connected and trust us and be in relationship with us. Um our platform is called Now Included. So so that they feel included.

And so that means that, you know, you you don’t make these big shifts and we just continue at least from that perspective to be who we’ve always been and just really care about people and genuinely try to serve them the best we can with valid and trusted information so that they can trust us back. So we actually you know, when I really think about our engagement with community hasn’t changed much at all.

Like we’re we’re still engaging with our communities the same way we always have because that is that’s that’s how you build trust, right? Trust people who you can go to and who you know are not going to, you know, do the switch up or switch a room just because the outside world is may be saying something different.

So Yeah, thanks for sharing that and the importance of being able to to, you know, use the language you’ve always used and kind of stick to uh the way that you operate in order for the community that you’re serving to build that kind of trust and relationship as well. Sheri, I did want to ask you, you know, working at Encoda and leading marketing and partnerships, specifically within the oncology space to create better patient outcomes.

What are some of the biggest concerns from the perspective of healthcare practitioners when it comes to uh health equity specifically? Yeah, there’s a couple of different concerns. So if we look at, you know, like the practice level and your providers, there was a concern around the diversity and clinical trials.

So, you know, the funding and everything that went towards, um, uh, creating a more diverse atmosphere and getting more diverse patients in clinical trials, now means that if you don’t have that, you’re going you’re actually increasing barriers more now. Um, and, you know, diverse data is good science. right?

And so when you’re thinking about diversity in clinical trials and how evidence-based guidelines are created from that information, now you may potentially have a gap in that information that’s coming in if you continue to perpetuate um and reduce diversity in clinical trials. So diversity in clinical trials is there.

When we think about social determinants of health and like how your patients are going to access treatment, so I sit like in a in a place where I can look at the practice level and think about and think through what they’re looking at. So on a day-to-day, if I’m seeking financial assistance to help with specific barriers for a patient to access therapies, am I still going to have that for my patient?

What that looks like on our side, like when I think of it from an organizational, um like from an organization who works with like pharma and biotech organizations, the health equity initiative, the patient assistance initiative, anything that affects actual determinants of health and how patients are accessing that. I’m wondering if, you know, if we’re still going to be able to get funding to continue to do that kind of work.

So, you know, when I go to pharma or biotech, if you know, there the political pressures on whether or not they’re going to continue these programs and if they’re going to continue to pour funding into these programs, like I sit at that nexus where if I’m having a health equity day or a summit or I’m creating resources around health equity, that I might have to fight a little bit more to get that sponsorship so we can continue to do the work that we’re doing.

And then ultimately, it’s going to be an HCP facing resource for them to treat patients that will ultimately be impacted by this work. So like that’s some of the things I’m concerned about, but from the practice level, you know, the clinical trials, the SPOH, like each time I interact with a patient, is that funding going to be there are those resources going to be there so that I can make that decision for that patient that’s in front of me.

I think it’s top of mind for all of our providers right now. Yeah, thanks so much for expanding on that. And actually that brings me nicely to our kind of next question, you know, you were talking about Shruta specifically around funding resources and whether these initiatives are still going to exist.

We um over the past few weeks at MM&M in our news room, you know, we have been reaching out specifically to big pharma companies to ask them about what current DEI initiatives and health equity initiatives they have at their companies, but didn’t really get a response from a lot of these companies as well. They were really hesitant to share some of the initiatives that they were working on. And I just wanted to throw it out there.

I know this question, specifically the project we were doing is around pharma, but maybe, you know, taking it back on one step and talking about healthcare in general is that why do you think there might be, you know, this hesitancy to share the kind of work that organizations have this hesitancy to share the work, especially around health equity or DAI. at this current moment. Yeah, I um actually Camille, I’ll let you go.

You came off me cuz I have some thoughts there but I like to hear your perspective here. Well, I think that goes back to what I mentioned earlier is folks are still trying to figure it out and it’s ever changing. I heard uh one colleague, you know, put it in nice terms and say all these external internal internal dynamics. We’re just trying to figure it out. So there is that but then I also, you know, when you think about pharma and biotech companies.

There’s so many things that are interrelated that impact their business, right? So, yes, you know, the health health equity piece is important, but there’s pricing, there’s the IRA, there’s other things that are tied to going that are also tied to what is happening with the government right now. And so, you know, they have really smart policy and government teams at these companies who are strategizing around how much how to balance, right? How much risk do we take?

Um, where do do we step in? Where do we pull back? Where do we kind of lay low, do our thing and not bring a whole lot of attention to it and still make a difference and not, you know, maybe negatively impact other things that might be part of our our business strategy, right? So some of it is just being like kind of silent and strategic at the same time and some of it is just they’re still trying to figure it out. So, what is there say, you know? Yes.

Yeah, and to that point or one of the things I wanted add to is depending on the organization that you’re talking to as well. So when I think of like big pharma, a lot of times they have those DE and I initiatives and your health equity initiatives made in like they understand the business need and um and I have not seen a lot of rollbacks or you know communication about DE and I from those organizations that had that base as part of their plan.

At Encoda, I do work with both like your large pharmaceutical organizations as well as small biotech.

And you know, and this is just my perspective, but for like a smaller organization, especially if they have products that are still in clinical development, their focus is going to be different from a business standpoint, bringing a drug to market or launching a new or you’re you’re you’re really just getting into the launch of a new medication and not necessarily incorporating like health equity and DE&I right now into their strategy because their strategy looks a little bit different.

And you know, as you’re reaching out to if if you’re reaching out to like your smaller biotech, um maybe there’s not anything established there yet because the business strategy did not look at the the E&I and health equity like as part of the strategy to bring the drug to market outside of what they’re doing for clinical trials.

So the clinical trial piece is a big piece of that and the FDA guidance and everything around clinical trials does sit there, but I don’t know that they will have a formal process to help equity just because of where they are in the business, you know, in the business need of their organization which might be trying to launch a new medication or something like that.

Yeah, now I come back to the point of many organizations trying to figure it out and really doing that internal deliberation around the legal risk, you know, the business focus, communication risk, risk tolerance, right?

So as they’re doing this calculation It’s all for the purpose of safeguarding progress and minimizing risk and the way that we’ve been talking about it is balancing what’s right versus what’s politically necessary.

And that’s not easy and so being very precise, strategic, and meticulous about those decisions, how it relates to strategy, how it relates to programming, how it relates to lexicon, how it relates to in internal structure, organizational structure, titles, all of those things are up for consideration. So, I think it’s a heads down.

Let’s figure it out first before we start talking about what the outcome is. Yeah, thanks so much for sharing all those insights, especially when it comes to, you know, taking some time to just step back and really focus on what you need to do to move forward and also it’s so dynamic. It also depends on the kind of organization that is out there and each one of the things that you mentioned, each of you mentioned is is so impactful for the future as well.

Um the last question I have just to kind of round things off, you know? Like we talked a lot about the challenges with health equity right now. We talked about D&I as well. But this time of uncertainty can also be kind of exciting um and almost be seen as like a new challenge, right? Moving forward. Um I’m sure each one of you has had to kind of think creatively and do stuff uh that maybe, you know, has challenged you kind of moving forward as well.

I just really wanted to ask within your specific roles, what are you really excited about when it comes to just being in the space now, even despite a lot of things being up in the air and there being so much uncertainty regarding healthcare and equity moving forward. I’m excited for the individuals that are going to continue to do the work.

Um I think that you know when we think about the rollback of these large programs as a whole you know we’re we’re really focusing on how that impact and and almost making it seem like the work is going to be done, but the people who do exist in the health equity space are very passionate about health equity and I don’t think that it’s going to it will provide there’s an hindrance there and there are additional barriers that we now have to overcome, but I’m excited for the chance to be able to move forward and the creative, you know, the creative ways we will figure out how to overcome these barriers that are presented now, which will ultimately You know, it’s cliche to say, you know, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, but if this were to happen again in the future, we now have those learnings and things that we can take and move forward with and that’s what I’m most excited about because I know that work is still going to get done.

The progress may be slowed, you know, there are challenges and barriers, but we’re going to we’re going to continue to move forward. I agree with Sharita. Um it’s exciting just to know that the work still is going to move forward and we’re still going to continue to help our communities who need it the most.

And in terms of, you know, the work that we do at Acclinate, I think about how we’re being creative and expanding and broadening our impact and figuring out, okay, well, beyond just working with clinical operations teams at pharmaceutical companies to diversify clinical trials, how do we help other function areas with inform a fine value in the insights that we’re bringing from from our black and brown communities, right?

How are we driving maybe business with the marketing teams, the medical affairs teams who could also find value in the community engagement work that we do in the relationships that we build or how do we expand beyond pharma and think about different health systems or nonprofit organizations who maybe have relied on you know government funding to be able to do some of the work that they were doing in the past, but now we can partner with them and help them amplify what they were doing that is no longer funded through our community engagement efforts.

So there’s excitement around like expanding the health equity work in new and creative ways in different verticals. 100%. I’m excited about moving from fear to courage to action to collaboration, really focusing in on the business case for health equity, focusing on the work that everyone just mentioned, which may look different, which may be described differently.

So it’s not even a getting back, it’s a moving forward with the work. And then grounding our efforts in individual patient needs, deep partnerships, community engagement. So just moving from this period of fear to the bold action that is the hallmark of this work. Thank you all so much for sharing that. and really great insights to leave our audience at MM&M.

I just want to thank all of you, Taylor, Camille, Sherida for being here. I wish you all the best with all the work that you’re doing moving forward. And thank you all for listening to the special edition of the podcast around Health Equity.

That’s it for this week. The MM&M podcast is produced by Bill FitzPatrick, Gordon Fayler, Lesha Bushak, and Jack O’Brien. Our theme music is by Cissy M. Stone. Rate, review view and follow every episode wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes out every week. And be sure to check out our website mm-online.com for the top news stories and pharma marketing.